If Stairway To Heaven came out today…

[Jürgen]

Hi Jung,

thank you for the interesting video contribution. No one can say how “Stairway to heaven” would have been produced today. Probably not at all. The 70’s was the time of endless long songs. Some songs should not have been much shorter at all, like Stairway to Heaven, or they would have lost their magic. Other songs, which followed this trend later, could have been a little shorter. Art is not only a question of quantity, but also of quality.

I think the average length of the songs says something about the respective decade (maybe also about the state of the technology at that time). In the 50s and 60s the running time of most songs was about 3 to 4 minutes. The songs were easy to consume, the content mostly entertaining but mostly not particularly demanding. Towards the end of the 60s the trend changed. The lyrics of the musicians became more political or philosophical, more diverse and had more to tell. Music at that time was not only used for entertainment, but became a kind of art in its own right (as mentioned in the video). Towards the end of the 70s and in the 80s the music remained more critical, but the songs became shorter again (nevertheless, maxi singles were distributed for a while, but they were mostly bad, because a well-written song was artificially stretched out). I can only speculate what was the reason for this renewed development: perhaps people no longer had so much time and leisure to devote to individual pieces of music. The consumer behavior of people is subject to constant fluctuations and also fashion trends. Perhaps the songs could be better integrated into radio and television programs due to the shortened running time. Who knows. Most of today’s music titles have also settled down to an estimated running time of 3 to 5 minutes. At least as far as the main stream is concerned. So the time of epic rock music seems (for now) to be over.

Yes, and then the role of the music industry: did it create trends or simply pick up on trends and cleverly market them? Mona and Lisa’s way of releasing their songs on their own is a good way, but also a rocky, arduous way. I’m glad they decided to put their music out without a major label. Ironically, in this day and age this is possible with the help of youtube, facebook and co., actually those media that live on controlled mass consumption. I hope for MLT that the guidelines on these platforms will not be further restricted and that they have a possibility to present their great music in the future. Much nicer and only a pious wish: The old fashioned way to present music: Going on tour and giving many people the opportunity to experience their music up close. In this day and age, certainly an enormous cost factor that can’t be done without the help of the music industry and its sponsors. And here the cat bites the tail again.

[Jung Roe]

Hi Jurgen. Thanks, it’s an interesting thing you point out about the length of songs. I guess that is the beauty of it, that an artists inspired song is just as long as it needs to be to express everything they wanted to say and impress upon the listener in emotions and ideas. You have a less than 3 minutes song in the Beatles Yesterday, to Led Zeppelin’s 8 minute long Stair Way to Heaven, or at 45 minutes long Beethoven Symphony. Each is perfect and to add or take away time to it would likely ruin it. Like in Stairway to Heaven, the 2nd half of the song takes a wilder rockier guitar part compared to the first half, or A Day In the Life has two distinct halves that without the other would not work as great. MLT’s WHY? I feel has two distinct parts too, and both halves are perfection together. It is interesting you point out at different periods in time, music lengths tended to be shorter like in the 50s and early 60s, and then got longer in the late 60s and 70s, and then got shorter again. External influences would likely cause the trend, but when artists work within the song length trend of the time, they create their masterpiece just right. It’s just my theory, but if you look at the time of Beethoven, there was no radio or recordings that could be distributed to the public, so getting the music out meant doing public performances, so they had to be long enough like 30 mins to 2 hours to make it worth while for the audience when they attended a performance, so the music of the time was long, and the art worked within those parameters. In the 20th Century, songs could be a lot shorter as they were played on the radio or recordings made available to the public through the existing media platforms.

[Daryl Jones]

Good points Jung. Time was, major (long) musical masterpieces from Beethoven, Mozart, Vivaldi, Ravel… were/are performed in live concert venues and constitute(d) a major social event. Modern day (the age of the gramophone if you will) followed by airtime/radio resulted in shorter pieces as listeners and advertisers needed airspace to promote and receive revenues resulting from the play. Listeners got bored (?) with long songs taking so much time and were seeking shorter and more varied sound bits. Some classic popular songs: Stairway to Heaven, American Pie, Hotel California, dare I say Inna Godda Davida(?) broke that barrier and actually thrived in spite of constraints laid down by stations and said advertisers.

I can easily sit through all four sides of Jesus Christ Superstar in a sitting, but most under the age of 45 (just a random guess but…) likely wouldn’t make it through the overture. Just as I can turn the lights down low and get absorbed in The Four Seasons with only breaks to flip sides. And yeah, I still listen to vinyl because it does sound better! I much prefer hearing Joe Bonamassa’s licks on his Les Paul via the turntable.

Having said that, I don’t have a problem listening to the Twins on CD, there are production considerations to marketing after all. I wouldn’t want the world to be deprived of their talents because a recorded LP was too difficult and expensive to produce and distribute to the masses.

[Jung Roe]

Hi Daryl. I can listen to some music like Beethoven’s Piano Concerto No 5, the first movement alone is over 20 minutes, and I don’t want it to end by the time it gets near the end, yet, Beatles Let It Be is just has impactful at 4 minutes. They are both perfection, interesting how art works. For me albums like Sargent Peppers, Pet Sounds, WHY?, and Orange are like a Beethoven Piano Concerto or Symphony, I like to listen to the whole thing from beginning to end. They take you on an emotional musical journey that takes you through the whole spectrum of emotions in the most magnificent way. In a Beethoven Symphony, there is tragedy and pain that through the 3 or 4 movements transforms the listener from sadness, through to triumph and joy, to peace and resolve, all in the most beautiful way. Beethoven’s 7th Symphony 2nd movement is so tragic and sad, but so beautiful, that it transforms the listener to overcome whatever hardship they are feeling through the beauty of the music, it can console and give peace and even triumph over fate like Beethoven’s 5th Symphony. That is the purpose of a sad song I think, just like Stairway To Heaven that starts off slow and melancholic with much beauty, but by the end those hard rock guitar sounds, wow, it makes you feel so good, gives you strength. I find MLT’s latest masterpiece work of art “WHY?” just as grand and magnificent as all the music mentioned here by Beethoven, Beatles, and Led Zeppelin, moving me with so much emotions.

There is good news in that MLT’s WHY? will be available on vinyl perhaps sometime in the new year, but it’s awesome to have that album on CD for now.

[David Herrick]

I imagine one driver in making the songs of the late 50’s and early 60’s so short is that a lot of them were intended for high-energy dancing. Rock and roll, daddy-o!

[Jürgen]

Yeah David. In the 50’s and 60’s, for whatever reason, people needed an outlet to let off steam quickly. I would like to remind of the crazy times of Beatlemania.

[David]

Hi Jung and folks,

Speaking of Rick Beato, he just put out a video of quick reactions to the current top ten songs in the world. It all sounds like club music to me, each a collection of filters and sound effects to a heavy beat. Rick notes how far back the vocals are in the mix, and I guess that would be true if what the songs say is not important.

I haven’t listened to the radio for music in probably twenty-five years, so it was a bit of a shock to hear where music is today. It’s not protest music, it’s not music to listen to in the still of the night with headphones on, or for singing along while driving down the highway. It’s Disco 2.0. I wonder if others get the same sense.

https://youtu.be/aumZekSrW9g

[Jung Roe]

Hi David, thanks for posting this interesting video. Yeah, I agree with you, and what Rick and his guest said, there is just nothing there in those top hit songs. There is nothing to draw you back for another listen. I hear no musicianship, hardly any real guitar work at all, and the singing is mostly auto-tuned. It’s just a bunch of musical effects stitched together, formulaic techno pop, regurgitated. There is just no skill or musical talent that went into it, except for some clever mixing of tracks. Throughout the entire video, all I kept thinking is Rick should hear MLT’s WHY?.

[Jürgen]

Hi Folks and David,

my active radio time ended sometime in the 90s. For the reasons you mentioned David: I didn’t like the current Top Ten 20 that were played all the time. Nevertheless, I occasionally follow current music trends as I’m still on the lookout for new music. Yes, I am not particularly interested in mainstream music. Why? This is no longer my generation and my attitude towards life. But let’s be honest: wasn’t every older generation angry about the music of the following, younger generation? What became of the Beat Era, panned by the older generation? And then those long haired hippies in the 70’s who tortured their guitars… An abomination for the older ones. I think there is still critical music today. But this is channeled, for example, in rap music or other sub-genres. Not my music at all, but the attitude towards life of a younger generation.

Of course I can start analyzing and dismantling music on an intellectual level. But that’s not the essence of music. My very personal opinion: Music should appeal to the feelings in a person and not serve the intellect. If the music does both, so much the better. How did Morrissey from “The Smith“ sing so right: “Hang the DJ, because his Music says nothing about me or my life”. I think that’s the point: the younger generation’s attitude towards life has become strange to us and the younger ones can’t relate to the music that most of us here love. Here’s an example: The Sgt. Pepper album and I came out at almost the same time. So I don’t really know much about the Woodstock era. Yes, I understand what moved people back then, what they protested against and what kind of world they wanted. But it’s not my way of life. Janis Joplin, Jimi Hendrix and co.: I can’t listen to that kind of music, no reference. On the other hand, why do I love The Beatles and the 60s? A time before or during my birth? No idea. I’m an 80’s kid and I love the music of that era (also all the independent stuff of that time, like Sisters of Mercy, New Model Army, Joy Division etc.). A music era that one or the other here in the forum certainly doesn’t particularly like. That’s just how it is with taste in music: music finds you and not you the music. Even in today there are musical pearls. Like Mona and Lisa, for example. But also other young musicians who have sought and found their own style. And trends seem to repeat themselves: in fashion, in design and also in music. Who knows, maybe in 20 years the kids will be listening to beat music and rock ‘n’ roll again? And what will the next older generation,the current young ones , say about it?

„…Music, when combined with a pleasurable idea, is poetry; music without the idea is simply music…”

– E.A. Poe –

[Daryl Jones]

Very astute observation Jurgen. If music is one thing at all, it is opinionated. Not of itself necessarily, but of the artists and then the listeners and fans.

I don’t care for techno, hip-hop, or rap; but it gets play, sales, and devout followers. Certainly doesnt make me an authority, nor does my personal opinion count to corporate minds. Regardless if the product is anti-establishment, even though that establishment promotes it and gives it creedence for monetary gain. My parents considered R&R as trash, the acid rock culture was the spawn of Satan, and the Summer of Love (hippy movement) was blatant sexploitation and immoral. Are my opinions really that much different?

Over and above music, I have spent over 2/3 of my life in the martial arts world. One cannot do that without embracing the culture and ideals half a world and many centuries of war and oppression away. The Western thought process has trouble with much of the obscure (to us anyway) philosophy that surrounds martial study, and often regards it with disdain if not outright fear. To fear what we do not understand is human nature.

So it is with music we do not trust or enjoy. The fault lies not with the medium, but in the interpretation of it I think. Like the news or an unfavorable TV program, we have the power to refuse it entry into our otherwise enjoyable time.

[Tom Fones]

More central control, less of everything else; creativity, spontaneity, risk uniqueness.

Let’s hope we live through all this.

[Jung Roe]

David, Jurgen, Daryl, Tom…some really thought provoking discussion about music and trends, love it!

Jurgen, to your point about music must appeal to the feelings, absolutely. Interestingly Beethoven was all about enlightenment, freedom, and individuality against the establishment of emperors, and his music was all about that like his Symphony No 3 dedicated to Napoleon, until he turned out to be a tyrant as well. It’s amazing how he could express those feelings and ideas with just instruments. MLTs Jump Ship with it’s instrumentation alone does all that expressing such a mysterious and concerning mood of the times. WHY? is such an emotional ride with the instrumentation alone like a Beethoven Symphony, all so incredibly moving.

While there definitely is great independent artists today as you point out, the popular mainstream top chart music today lacks the ability move you. The top hits today certainly did not do anything for Rick Beato who certainly has a wide taste and appreciation for a broad range of music, old and new.

Late 70s and 80s was my growing up age culture, and I like the music of that time too. Rock Me Amadeus, Rapture! Oh yeah.

[Daryl Jones]

Something that used to worry me, is the inevitable aging of the rock & roll stars and writers I grew up with (The Stones, Clapton, McCartney/Beatles, Deep Purple, Henley/Eagles etc) and of course, the untimely demise of so much talent. My guitar Gods of recent times: Richie Sambora, Joe Bonamassa, Kenny Wayne Shepherd, Steve Vai…none of them are kids anymore. I recently had the pleasure of seeing/hearing The Eagles in concert, and to be sure it was epic! But Henley said something I found quite ominous to the effect of : “if we don’t make it back again, Edmonton, you have been great for us…” sent a chill of remorse up my spine. The only Superstar act I’ve seen more than them is Elton John, and he’s closing down his tour life as we speak. Ozzy is probably done, Journey, Boston, Lynyrd Skynyrd, Pink Floyd…all finished or soon to be. How long will The Stones keep going now that Charlie has passed? Seems like the age of great song writers and actual instrument playing is going the way of the dinosaur. Woe is me, check that, us.

But there is a shining light in Mona and Lisa. No auto tune, no computer driven backing or (God forbid) lead tracks in their original works. Sure, there is a place for electronic enhancement, but not as a foundation. And they keep the legacy and history alive in their covers. 1000 blessings on them, the world needs them more than I think they know.

[Jung Roe]

Hi Daryl

Yes a great point, couldn’t agree with you more. All the great legends unfortunately are in their twilight. Paul McCartney, RingoStar in their 80s, Brian Wilson, Mike Love, Alan Jardine are all up there, and the legends you mentioned as well. There is no great talented musicianship any more in the music. Mona and Lisa are the future of Rock and Roll indeed. They carry on the torch of inspired rock and roll music to the next generations with new innovative music style and sounds all their own.

[Jung Roe]

Here is another interesting video from Rick Beato. Music today in the last decade or two have hardly any key changes, one of the big musical elements that create moving emotions in music. Rick is talking about the top chart hit songs, as there are brilliant independent artists creating inspired work. This goes to prove the point once again of the general trend of mainstream music that truly lacks musical substance, and musicianship and is uninspiring. As Rick said in the other video posted above “are these really the top 10 songs…”, there is just nothing there in mainstream music today to move you and draw you back.

https://youtu.be/rVllpzhA5VM