The Eurovision song contest…or, will MLT become the next ABBA?

[Howard]

Hi Mike. I look forward to connecting on Facebook for more information. It was sad to read your post and see that you  are so upset. I really think you should just take a short break from posting and reconsider your options as you have been a good club member and it would be sad to see you go. I don’t know what has you so upset but I’m sure it can be resolved.

[Michael Triba]

Hey Howard!

I’m glad you read that before anyone else.  Go re-read; as I deleted most of it.  I copy/pasted the first one to MS Word to keep.

I’m pretty upset, but I love the Wagner family and most likely wish to buy the next MLT original album and still follow their careers.  They know why I’m upset and becoming increasingly so.  IMHO, I have been very patient and loving and kind in approaching them.  I do as their song says; “to learn to love your brother.”  I would appreciate some of that in return.

I have tried to resolve the issue for at least 3 weeks, but am being ignored, buddy.  I have sent the girls an e-mail, and probably need to speak to Michaela now.  I really don’t want to follow the route of Timmy and Picasso, but may have to do so for more than one reason.  I have already taken a long break from posting here, Howard.

I will send you that FB friend request and one to Lior Dvir as well.  You and I can exchange e-mail addresses in a pm.  I’m an e-mailing machine and that is my preferred mode of long communiques.  Thanks, my friend!

 

[Howard]

I think you may be reading too much into such ‘alleged’ ABBA comments. I’m sure you would be dismayed by what most of my peers would have been saying about ABBA back in the seventies. After all, we were also young, mostly hard core Rolling Stones fans and also into the punk/new wave era music! That doesn’t mean we don’t now appreciate the brilliant composing abilities of Benny and Bjorn and the amazing songs and performances of the four of them. They first really made it in Australia, thanks to Ian (Molly) Meldrum and the ‘Countdown’ weekly music show.

What you need to remember is this is a club supporting Mona and Lisa, not ABBA or any other performers, no matter how good they may be or how much we may like them. You should also consider how much he Twins already do for us and just how busy they were last month with their Event Calendar and just how focused they must now be on that new album we are all waiting for. I too have a couple of questions awaiting moderation but I’m not at all concerned about how long they may be taking in getting back to us. I think we are putting far too much pressure on them at the moment and this club was meant to be a positive contribution that wasn’t overly demanding on their time and limited resources.

 

[Michael Triba]

Ha ha; you sound just like my buddy Itso!  I’m not taking issue with ABBA comments and I’m not here to promote other bands. I was explaining to Lior why I did not think his question would be answered.  (There was a ton of that done here in my long thread, including you.)  If you Facebook friend me, I’ll introduce you to someone there that will knock your socks off.  If not your cup-up-tea, then we shake hands and go our separate ways.

Do you think I don’t know or appreciate what MLT has done here?  Damn!  I have called it the “grooviest place on the web.”  Everyone here has their own reasons to be here, and the right to have their own feelings, likes, and dislikes.  If the VALUE is not bigger than the PRICE for me, then it is time to call it a day.  The PRICE is not just the 13 bucks a month.  It is the TIME and ENERGY, including what I am doing as we speak.  You also do not have all of my facts, and that is why I sent to a FB request.  Fair enough, buddy?

Going to bed as it is now 3:45 am.  Slipping back into bad habits that could be fatal to my health.  Appreciate your thoughts and your right to your opinions even if I don’t like or agree with all of them.  Really not in the mood to be “corrected” for how I feel right now.  Can you tell?  Later, buddy!

[Rudolf Wagner]

Hi Lior,
Please excuse the late reply but as this seemed to have become more of an discussion amongst yourselves that until now we didn’t have time to follow properly. Leaving the majority of follow up comments and various opinions aside, it’s probably best to just answer your original post 🙂

First of all thank you for the question and for actually taking time out of your day to think about ways we could move our career forward, that’s really cool! Personally for us there are too many things about the Eurovision Contest we dislike for it to be something we would consider actively looking to take part in. Sure, it would help us with exposure but there are many ways that would allow us to reach more people quicker that we deliberately don’t do if it clashes with our values or taste.

We’re not a big fan of the format, the underlying politics, the way the show is held and how its contestants or winners are chosen. The idea of taking part in a “contest” itself when it comes to something as subjective as music feels somewhat off to us. Not that we don’t get the entertainment appeal or why people enjoy watching it.

Now IF we should get invited, we might think of an idea of adding our own twist to the format in order to make a point but I don’t see that happening in the first place to be honest.
Also having too many things we’re currently working on and too little time to get them all done as fast as we’d like, trying to get into the Eurovision contest isn’t something we have the time for. But we really appreciate the idea and you guys thinking about ways to help us move our career forward!! Love that 🙂

And lastly just to settle the ABBA argument and what we have allegedly said or haven’t said: Yes, it’s true we aren’t very keen on their music but then again we aren’t very keen on a whole lot of music out there. The only reason ABBA seems to come up somewhat frequently and has led us to express our personal dislike for their music publicly (though I would think in a lighthearted, joking way) is because we get compared to them so much. And like you pointed out, there are a surprising amount of similarities, many of which we weren’t aware of, so I guess it’s no surprise their name comes up so much 🙂

Again, sorry for not getting back to this sooner and we really appreciate all the nice things and supportive words you wrote!

Thanks,
Lisa

[Christomir Rackov]

Haha… what a crazy discussion, and an interesting read all of this is :O Especially after Miss Lisa has already posted her reply 😉

Hello, everyone. For those that might not be aware, I am that Itso guy that Mike has mentioned quite a few times in this thread (thanks, Mike)…LOL Yes, “Itso” is the short version for Christomir in Bulgarian, believe it or not. And I can confirm the things Mike said I would. But I digress… Well, I won’t try to reply to each post in this thread separately…

You guys all brought up many points and arguments, and I agree with many of them, and disagree with some of them.

I will say this, just to clarify it, because it got brought up several times – the Eurovision Song Contest is NOT a reality show, or a talent show! It is exactly what its title says – a contest for *SONGS*! Not for artists, let alone – for aspiring young musicians. Of course, the performers also do get a lot of exposure, when their song gets chosen to represent their country (or sometimes – a foreign country, as was the case with Celine Dion). But the main focus is supposed to be which is the actual best SONG, among all those entered from the different countries (or rather  – from their national TV stations) for a certain year… And just a small reminder here, although I am sure all of you know it – MLT excel at writing great songs of their own. Every year. 😉

And no, the countries (i.e. their national TV stations) don’t really send their best and most commercially successful ARTISTS (i.e. those that have achieved the most success in charts, record sales, have the largest following, etc.)… at least not very often. Especially – not the Western European countries, and those with the most established and profitable music industries, like the UK, Germany, etc…. if they did that, they would often have to send the same artist to represent them several years in a row; and that doesn’t really happen. 😛 And those superstar artists would refuse to do it anyway. So yeah, from those countries, a young and up-and-coming artist could indeed use the Eurovision Song Contest as a trampoline for their career, if they are so lucky to have one of their songs chosen to represent their country, and get all the exposure from that, as an artist (and hopefully as a songwriter) too. And we are talking millions of viewers here… (Although, while I say “lucky”, there are actually many various ways and procedures of choosing the countries’ representatives, and they can even vary for the same country for different years, so I won’t go into detail there.)

I am generally fascinated by the whole concept, and it is great in theory, with even greater potential. So, I watch it almost every year (even those years when there is no song representing Bulgaria), and I usually discover at least 1 or 2 (sometimes even more) songs in it that I like or even love… and hence I start paying attention, sometimes even – start  cautiously following the careers of the artists who wrote and/or performed those songs. However, there are many things that I dislike, in the reality of what happens in and around the Eurovision Song Contest, and many of those things are those or similar to the ones Lisa mentioned! So yeah, I can absolutely understand why MLT dislike it, and they wouldn’t want to invest ANY time, effort and finances into trying to get themselves to represent the UK, or Austria. That is – if that would indeed require them to waste any time, effort and finances; in that case, I 100% support their decision.

However, IMHO, if the system of submission of candidatures for the UK and/or Austrian entry for a certain year happens to allow them to apply by simply sending a new (and not-yet-released) original song to the BBC or the ORF for consideration, and it doesn’t require them to do anything else than that, then I do believe it would at least not hurt them to do it…

And, as Lisa said, if they get an unsolicited direct invitation the BBC or the ORF to be the representative for 2020 of one of the 2 countries, then they could definitely do it… and it would be SO MUCH fun to show to all those “Eurovision junkies” what actual great music is… ^_^ …and that it doesn’t matter if it sounds “dated”, and whether it fits the stupid stereotypes for “proper Eurovision-style” songs (fortunately, there have been a few such songs entered in the contest in recent years too, and I liked some of them)… But yeah, as Lisa also said, that scenario, of them getting invited, is highly unlikely – I am sure the BBC and the ORF have no idea who the MonaLisa Twins are, despite how they have had many opportunities to learn about them (and obviously, that’s their own loss… but also the loss for millions of people in their audience, who haven’t heard of MLT either :().

So yeah, if one of those things happens, and MLT get one of their brilliant self-written songs right in there as the UK or Austrian representative for 2020, without spending any money, time or effort for that, then that would be a GREAT scenario, because from that point on, they could only benefit from it and all the exposure it would bring them – they would NOT have to give up any rights to the song, or compromise their creative freedom in any way (like sign any binding contracts); they wouldn’t even need to pay for the promotion of their own song – the BBC, and the ORF respectively, would sponsor them, including tours to promote the song around Europe, a high-budget video, heavy airplay of it, etc. – everything possible to popularize it and help it become a contender for doing better in the vote at the actual Eurovision Song Contest and its Grand Final. ^_^ ALL of that would be paid by the respective national TV station, because MLT’s song would also be THEIR representative at the ESC (though they wouldn’t own the song), so it’d be in their best interest that they make it popular! And MLT wouldn’t have to pay for that, but AFAIK they also wouldn’t be required to do anything they don’t want to – I believe they would have the final say about those promotional tours, the way the song is presented during them and at the ESC itself, etc. Basically, that’s a win-win situation! The only thing they would need to invest, from a certain point on, is the time and effort for all that promotion of the song… but think about it – they will invest those for a great new song anyway, even if it’s not chosen for the ESC, except in that case they will also do it with their own limited resources of an indie band/project, as per usual… So those are not really any extra “expenses”, right? 😉

Anyway, I also understand Lisa’s point about how it’s a matter of taste, and I actually agree that the overall impression from the ESC is of it favoring “cheesy” music – shockingly, there have been a couple of editions of the contest (I can’t remember which years those were exactly, and I won’t check now), where I watched the entire Grand Final and didn’t really like ANY single song in it! :O And obviously, on the other occasions, besides the 1, 2 or 3 songs that I liked or loved, and besides the several songs that I thought were OK, there were also many songs that made me think “Ouch!! Seriously? THIS is the best new song that this country was able to send to represent it this year?!?”. So yeah, I think you guys can now get the big picture here… and there are definitely many perspectives to view it from…LOL

[Michael Triba]

Thanks so much Itso!  I knew that you would come here and be the “Voice of Reason and True Knowledge” here!  You were the very first fellow MLT fan I ever met, and I continue to cherish our friendship and highly respect you, buddy!

To everyone else I say; see why almost 2 months ago (on Dec 3, 2018) I said; “Paging Christomir.  Christomir?”  Itso, being the humble man and good citizen that he is, would never “blow his own horn.” He is not only the most knowledgeable MLT fan I know, he is also the biggest and most knowledgeable music fan I know.  I have learned of dozens of great artists from him (especially European) over the past 28 months I have had the pleasure to know him.  Like me he is a huge sports fan.  He has virtually instant recall of MLT history and if I have a question, he either knows or can find the answer for me quickly.  But he is very balanced as well.  He does not concern himself with every piece of minuntae of every minute of the lives of the Twins.  He has met them in person, but does not flaunt that.  He is a fan and a friend of the Wagners, but not fanatical.  He does not put them up on an unrealistic pedestal .  He sees them as they are; lovely and talented young women, but not as unapproachable Austrian Goddesses.

This thread is of course now open to everyone, especially since Lisa has now answered.  But for me, the only additional person I really wish to hear from now is Lior Dvir, if the gentleman chooses to do so.

To Lisa and the Wagner family I say this; I am truly remorseful and mortified if I was the one to stir up contentions here.  I have just a bit more to say to you, but it will be in private to you, and you alone.  I continue to love you and what you do and for what you represent in our small worldwide community.  Thank you for putting up with me still.  I will follow your careers, buy all your music, and tell others about you until the day I perish and move on to a better life.  I say; thank you for the music, the songs you’re singing.  Thanks for all the joy they’re bringing.  (Don’t know where that sudden inspiration came from.)  🙂

Okay; I will shut it now.  I’ve already said too much in the past 24 hours.  Good night and God bless.

 

[Howard]

Thank you so much for indulging us with your thoughts here Lisa. I’m just sorry you felt the need to respond as I thought members had already covered the topic pretty well and should have been more aware of what your feelings on the topic would be. Any genuine following of the MLT vision would have indicated the views you have expressed here. Yes, it was an interesting and well thought out question from Lior (which had also been put by others in the past), and perhaps he deserved a personal response for his thoughtfulness, but I do think that some members do expect far too much from you and your sister when you are already giving so much!

[Howard]

And thanks for sharing your thoughts Itso. Mike certainly is a big fan of yours. Not being a particular fan of ESC, unlike one of my brothers and his family who watch it religiously every year, I am not aware of all the details as you seem to be. I still stick with my initial contention that ESC is not for the MLT. However, if an opportunity was presented to them in the way that you suggest, where it would be in their interests, without any cost to them, then certainly the option would need to be weighed up by them at the time.

I hope it never comes to that though and that they are able to continue to grow their ‘business’ without having to sacrifice what they have worked so hard for.

[Jung Roe]

The idea of taking part in a “contest” itself when it comes to something as subjective as music feels somewhat off to us.

Spoken like a true artist Lisa!

While contests might present some value in the amateur realm, its concept I think is at odds with the spirit of the artist.   I couldn’t imagine John Lennon or Paul Simon, as young aspiring artists, submitting their music to a contest for validation.  I don’t think they would have cared less what critics or panel of judges thought of their music, as long as they liked it and thought it had some value to the world.

[Howard]

Too true Jung. I wouldn’t expect any budding Bob Dylans, Van Morrisons or the Glimmer Twins subjecting themselves to a process like this either. Somehow it just wouldn’t seem right seeing artists like these putting themselves before judges in such a devaluing way!

[Lior]

Dear Lisa,

Thank you very much for the detailed and sincere answer to my question.

For me it’s not obvious that both of you take the time to answer most of the questions in this forum. I understand it takes a lot of time and maybe you would prefer to have this time free for writing more beautiful songs such as “In it for love” or “Count on me” (I love them)…

My intentions with this question were pure: only a suggestion for a “promotion boost” for the Mona Lisa Twins, using the Eurovision song contest as a platform.  I used ABBA only as an example for the potential in this idea.

However my question provoked a long thread of emotional and passionate arguments, led by some of your most dedicated fans. I do value some of the inputs I got from people like Howard, Michael, etc…, but some of the messages were totally out of the subject and became more and more personal…

I guess this long thread deterred you from answering for a long time…

Therefore, I think the decision to moderate this forum, and prevent other fans from answering until MLT answer themselves, is a very good decision!

About ABBA music: I’m not an ABBA fan at all. I am first of all an addicted Beatles fan, but I love to listen to all kinds of music from the 60’s and 70’s, including ABBA.

I think there are things to learn from them as well: their ability to write melodic and catchy pop songs, and their fine arrangements and production. We need to remember that they were active mainly during the Disco era, and that the Disco influenced almost every artist at that time, including genuine rock bands.

I’d like to mention, as an example, two ABBA songs, well written and with good musical production. Songs of this style could be written by MLT and fit their new record without any of their fans complaining (-:

The songs are: “The name of the game”, “Eagle”.

Finally, two notes to specific people:

–       To Mr. Michael Triba: I saw now your friendship request in FB and I will answer it soon. Note that I don’t have much time for social networking. I’m only here because I like the music of MLT very much and I want to support them.

–       To Mr. Christomir Rackov: I liked reading your message and opinion about the subject. I think if the MLT would consider participating in the Eurovision in the future, they should read what you wrote. By the way, my late mother was born in Sofia and Bulgarian was the native language at my late grandparents’ home…

And to Mona and Lisa: May you have a good mood and peace of mind to write great songs for your next record.

Regards,

Lior.

[Howard]

Well done Itso. Yes, a very long post but as you took the time to write it, I took the time to read it. You are an excellent and learned advocate for the ESC and participation in it. I’ll never have your knowledge of all things ESC.

I guess MLT are the only ones who really know what the opportunity cost would be for them to consider submitting a song for inclusion. I hope they can at least find the time to read your very passionate piece recommending their involvement .

[Christomir Rackov]

Haha, thanks, Howard! 😀 And you can now see what Mike meant, when he said I was also level-headed about things? And yet, I can write this unwisely long and passionate rant, urging MLT to give a chance to something like the ESC, despite how I myself dislike many things about it, and realize and understand all of its shortcomings. 😛

But the thing is (and I hope I have been able to convince you and others in this too) – most of those flaws and negative things about the ESC are not really the fault of the organization, and especially – not of the artists and songwriters, who submit their songs for it every year! At least – not most of them. It is mainly the fault of those “Eurovision junky” type of fans, viewers and “experts”, who misunderstand the main purpose of it, get too carried away with the competitive aspect, have narrow-minded views of what music is about in general, and especially – those who take their national pride too far, and turn the competitive aspect of it (which was supposed to be just for fun) into an ugly battle of nationalism and politics… 🙁

Fortunately, those are by far not ALL the viewers and fans of the ESC, I can guarantee you that. So, indeed, we shouldn’t be prejudiced to it and judge it based solely on those people. 🙂

Have a great evening, Howard.

[Jung Roe]

Hi Mr Christomir (or Itso if I may).   It’s a pleasure to make your acquaintance here, and loved reading your incredibly thoughtful posts here.  I wasn’t planning on posting anything further on this thread but given your enlightening posts, I would like to respond with any additional 2 cents I have left 🙂 .  I think one thing that we can all certainly agree on here is that we all want MLT to be hugely successful as they deserve in getting their great music out to the world for all to discover.  There is a lot of joy in their music that a lot of people really need to experience, as I think they are one of the few bands these days creating truly good music that can have a big positive impact on peoples lives and the world just like the Beatles did and many other musical legends from the past.   “No more Worries Company”, “It’s Alright”, “In It For Love”, “That’s Life”, “The Wide, Wide, Land” etc.  So much positive and enlightening music there.

I don’t doubt your knowledge and everything you said about the ESC for one minute, but I think just as many of us strong MLT fans as there are here, there are going to be just as many well-intentioned creative ideas on how MLT should accomplish their goals.  Challenge is what is best for MLT at this time?  Putting aside any debate about whether ESC is competitive or not and how it fits within MLTs artistic values, I suspect MLT time and resources are limited between time needed to create new music without distractions, all the projects planned, and time/effort required to keep the MLT website and MLT Club going etc…   Of course only MLT can answer this for themselves, but these are concerns that would come to my mind in regards to ESC.

I don’t think there is any fear or concern by MLT about how their music will be judged at the ESC, but rather more a concern whether it is a worthwhile endeavor in time and effort for a “chance” their music might get selected.  Will the price in time and effort with ESC for a “chance” be worth it or just become a huge distraction?  I know you mentioned there is very little for MLT to do other than submitting their music, but who knows for sure?  I think very few things, especially in business and music or show business are free, in terms of resources, time, and effort.  That’s just my personal opinion.

I have faith in MLT’s wisdom and judgement here as they know the music industry far better than any of us here, and I trust and support whatever they decide to do which I am certain will be a well thought out and prudent one.  As I indicated in my first post here, it’s good MLT always keep an open mind so they never limit opportunities for themselves, but it is equally important from my own personal business sense to not lose sight of priorities and see plans thru to completion before pursuing other options.

[Rudolf Wagner]

It’s interesting reading everyone’s thoughts on this topic. We wish to say a few more things and also add a bit of our experience about the ESC that isn’t widely known by the general public. Besides our personal taste and opinion about music competition and similar programs as such, our Dad has gotten to know a lot of former participants of the ESC personally, as he was one of Austria’s most successful studio owners and producers. So he’s gotten some first hand experience about the consequences of taking part in this contest that might interest you.

Some of the contestants claimed it has damaged their careers or at least that it was a horrible experience. The ESC seems to have some very particular “rules” that have almost nothing to do with the rest of the music scene and world of art. Therefore artists get presented with a lot of problems that have very little to do with their art but a lot with the ESC:

• They know they have to write and perform a song that fits into the ESC cliche to have a chance to win that is often very different to the original style of the artist.
• There are contracts and clauses involved (possibly different from country/network to country/network) that could seriously harm your artistic freedom and livelihood. We ourselves refused to sign the contract the ORF presented us with for the Radio Wien performance and which even lawyers called unconscionable. Usually, part of these contracts also forbid you to publicly talk about them.
• They run the risk of losing their often hard earned fan base (like some artists actually did) because of appearing hypocritical and inauthentic.
• They have to expose their art to a rather random jury (which is obviously the preferred perverted way to present music these days), that even seems to have more political than artistic criteria in their voting habits.
• The ESC has a certain image that often collides with the artist’s image. Some artists have a lifelong stigma because of that.
• The increase in popularity is rather questionable and often only lasts a short time, even if you win.

All these things are especially unnecessary for artists who have already found a way to reach an audience and gain exposure through other ways. That’s why you hardly see any professional musicians take the risk and hassle of taking part in the ESC. They also know a terrible contract when they see it. It might have been different in the beginning of the contest but it’s certainly the case for a long time.

The win-win situation that Christomir describes in his post above would make a lot of sense in a perfect world. In reality it is neither about the song nor the artist but mostly about politics or what is considered smart politics. Every country wants to win and therefore politics takes over and tells you what’s appropriate and what not. We think the ESC is a good example of what happens when art is guided by political forces. The idea of state-artists never worked very well. It didn’t work in the Third Reich nor in the Soviet Union nor will it work in the Western World because it is fundamentally opposed to the role of an artist.

Amongst songwriters and arrangers there exists the rather loose term “ESC-song”. You could describe it as harmless (at most pseudo-rebellish), inoffensive, “cheerful”, to a certain degree amateurish, catchy or simply cheesy. Extra points if what you do fits the current political agenda or whatever “cause” the media is currently pushing (like Conchita Wurst – Austrian Winner 2014). And it better appeals to the masses.

Here is an article that talks more about the voting politics and problems:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/tv/0/guide-political-voting-votes-eurovision/

All in all, besides of the reasons above, we feel that the ESC was one of the first events that started the now prevalent rating-mania where everything has to be rated, compared and commented on. To us this simply isn’t what art is or ever should be, and we don’t want to participate in or support that, even if it got us “exposure”.

This in itself is a completely perverted trend in our modern society, or can you imagine Bob Dylan or the Beatles following a two hours ESC televoting to see if they won?

Radio Wien – Clubkonzert MonaLisa Twins – Radio Performance

[Christomir Rackov]

Thank you, Lisa, that was enlightening. 🙂 Especially the detailed info you just gave us about contracts, etc. – that is something I obviously didn’t know the details of how it works in those two particular countries… and I am sure it works differently in the different countries; and, unfortunately, it seems Austria is one of the worse ones in this respect… 🙁 Oh well.

Just a last note from me, about two of your points (which are actually the same point):

– “They know they have to write and perform a song that fits into the ESC cliche to have a chance to win that is often very different to the original style of the artist.”

and

– “They run the risk of losing their often hard earned fan base (like some artists actually did) because of appearing hypocritical and inauthentic.”

 

Everything I said, advocating that you should give it a chance one day, was assuming that the system of selection for a given country for a given year would allow you to apply with a song that you have ALREADY written, and that is 100% in your own style, and absolutely does NOT fit the stupid “ESC cliche”, which I talked about too, and you can see I hate it too!

On the contrary – the idea is that you would do that exactly as a form of rebellion AGAINST that cliche and the narrow-mindedness of those “Eurovision junkies” I was talking about, who always expect to hear only that type of music, and it always has to sound “trendy” and “current” – basically, to go there and show these people what real, honest music is! ^_^

And, since I watch and listen every year, I can guarantee you that there have been quite a few songs like that, in genres and styles completely different to the stereotypical “ESC song”, entered by various countries. True, they are not a majority, but they do get presented on the big stage of the ESC, and I am always happy to see and hear them 😀

And I can guarantee you that those artists don’t compromise anything, and don’t lose any of their fan base – they simply show to more people who they are, and what their music is. 🙂

They don’t change who they are, or what music they write, just to cater to the trends and ESC cliches, or to try to win. They don’t care about winning – they just present their art.

And yes, some countries do indeed select such songs to represent them from time to time. I can’t remember the UK or (especially) Austria having done it in recent years, unfortunately.

So, of course, my assumption, under which I was talking this entire time, includes a the pretty unrealistic scenario that the BBC or the ORF will one day go against “the tide” and somehow miraculously pick such a song written by you, in your own style, and retro-sounding, to represent them (e.g., maybe because someone with influence in one of those stations happens to like the particular song that you have submitted). Or that some day you would be willing to apply to represent a third country, where the people at the national TV station are not narrow-minded chumps, like those “in power” in the UK and Austria… 😉

So, indeed, it is highly improbable…LOL But improbable is not the same as impossible 😉

But yeah – if not for that assumption, and if a TV station choosing you to represent them would really ask you to write a new song in such a way, or arrange/present it in a way that fits some stupid ESC cliche or “modern” style (basically – tell you how to write and/or persent your own music… seriously?!), then it’s glaringly obvious that you should NOT do that! And you should even laugh in their faces for even suggesting it…LOL

So, please, don’t misunderstand my suggestion, and what exactly I am advocating here. 🙂

Thanks again, Miss Lisa 🙂

[Dave Duckshoot]

Well done the Wagner family, stick to your principles and avoid the tacky ESC. If you ask me your principled stand is a lucky ESCape. 🙂

[Christomir Rackov]

Dave, I think I very clearly explained in all of my posts above (and especially – in my last reply to Lisa) that it IS actually possible to stick to your principles AND at the same time go to the ESC and get huge publicity for your song! (and by YOUR song I mean exactly the kind of song YOU want to write and how YOU want to write and present it – not catering to any mass trends or that “Eurovision style” that a herd of narrow-minded people expects to hear)

Whether it is probable, or even possible, in a country like the UK or Austria, is another matter. 🙁 But I can guarantee you that every year there are some other countries, who get represented by actual good songs, by honest artists, who do what they believe in, and not what they are told to do! (i.e. – exactly like the MLT; just – much less talented LOL)

So I think it is a bit unfair of you to assumme that ALL songs in the ESC are written and presented to fit the stupid cliche! And I am starting to get a bit irritated by some of you people in this thread calling the entire ESC “tacky” and believing that it’s all awful… while some of you haven’t even listened to any of the songs in it, to make up your own mind. :/

I assure you, like with most things in this world, there is actual diversity there too. And just because Austria sends tacky songs every year, that doesn’t mean that ALL countries do it! And, e.g., just because Bulgaria sent tacky and bland electro-pop songs the last two times, that doesn’t mean it ALWAYS sends songs like that.

Yes, I already admitted that usually at least 75% of ESC is like that. But you can’t just equate that to 100% and put the actual good songs in the same pot. :/ Even if less than 25%, or even if just 2 or 3 songs at a certain edition of the ESC are different-sounding ones that I happen to like or love, to me it is still worth it for them to go there, and get all that publicity!

And I can guarantee you that many other music fans are like me and discover a few songs and artists each year at the ESC (and just ignore the bland and cliche-sounding majority, without caring in which place each song will finish)… So yeah, just like with the songs, please don’t generalize about the fans either – not ALL of us are idiots and ECS junkies!

Always remember that gems can be found even among all the dirt, and don’t dismiss so easily the chance to find them. Or the chance of those gems to shine among all the dirt 😉

Have you thought about it that way, guys? Have you thought how much even greater an MLT song would sound among the 75% dirt and mediocrity? 😉 And how awesome it would be in comparison? 🙂 And how, even if just 5% of the millions of viewers have enough brain in their head to notice it and appreciate it, that would mean it becomes 200 times more better known than it is now?! And MLT’s great music is suddenly not the best kept secret.

So, please, try not to generalize so much, and think that, just because something like the ESC has a reputation of being “tacky”, or just because from a certain country’s perspective it is, that makes ALL of it tacky – no, it doesn’t! There are 40+ countries sending songs to the ESC every year, and some of them are very different to what you would expect. Please, don’t just assume they all sound the same, and they are all tacky. Especially if you haven’t heard them.

Thank you, and have a good evening.

[Dave Duckshoot]

Hi Christomir, it wasn’t my intention to offend. I was born in 1944 before ESC was conceived. I’m not sure whether I saw the first show but I do remember my older sisters talking about it. I watched some of the shows in the sixties and seventies and was not impressed, hence my rather scathing comment. All the best.

[Christomir Rackov]

Dave, I too apologize, if I sounded like I was attacking you for your opinion – that was not my intention. 🙂

[Howard]

Thank you Lisa for taking the time to respond with such detail and drawing to our attention some of the intricacies I was not aware of in regard to participation in the ESC. As much as it would be wonderful to see a MonaLisa song performed at this event, it seems that as I thought, the demands of the entry process and the politicisation of the voting system, would not be worth your time and effort.

Thank you Lior for your sincere question and thank you once again Itso for educating me further on all things ESC. Your passionate support will mean that I’ll watch the ESC this year in a much keener and enlightened way. Thank you too Jung for your usual intelligent, reasoned and balanced contribution.

In the end, I believe if MLT did become successfully involved in the whole ESC business, it would lead to another dilemma for them. They are a small family business (I’ve heard the term cottage industry used in the past) and too much commercial success could alter the dynamics of their raison d’être in a negative way. That is, they would need to expand the business to accommodate the increased popularity to the extent they would now lose the total control they have over all aspects of their work.

MLT have been successfully growing their business for over ten years now through social media, radio interviews and  plying their trade via basic hard work, leading to the creation of the MLT Club. I have complete faith that they know what is in their best interests when it comes to the production and integrity of their art. They are also in the fairly unique position of being able to bring their many fans and supporters along with them on their extraordinary journey and don’t really need any help from the corporate or ‘state’ commercial music world.

[Jung Roe]

Really well stated Howard.  It looks like we were both responding at the same time, I didn’t see yours.

[Jung Roe]

Wow Lisa, you’ve presented a very compelling case highlighting the potential risks with participating in the ESC, especially the first hand accounts by former participants of ESC your dad learned of personally.  That article with all the potential politics that take place in the ESC process is illuminating.

Itso, while I can appreciate the positive flip side of the coin about ESC that yourself and Lior point out and you have witnessed over the years watching the ESC, with the negative sides that MLT are aware of, you can hardly blame them for having some reservations to put it mildly.

I am more convinced than ever ESC is not for MLT, especially with all they have going for them right now as true professional artists.  No matter how compelling the upside with ESC is if things turn in your favor, risking artistic integrity in the process is too high a price to pay for professional artists, and MLT are artists first and foremost, so I think their decision against ESC is natural here.

This has been an interesting discussion though.  Thanks and have a good weekend all.

[Christomir Rackov]

Jung, I’m just curious:

How exactly do you think they would risk their artistic integrity at all, in the VERY specific scenario I described, which is the only way I would recommend them to apply with a song for a ESC – i.e., if their song is somehow selected AFTER it is already written, and no one asks them to change it even 1 %, or to change the way they present it… or give up any rights, or money… ?

And yes, I admitted that scenario is unlikely, but that’s not the point here (though I do believe that it’s not 100% impossible for the UK in the future, let alone for some other countries…)

I keep explaining that scenario, and yet you all keep raising concerns that it already excludes :/