The rivalry between two great 60's bands that would shape music forever

[David Herrick]

This is fascinating, Jung!  I can’t believe I haven’t seen this before, unless it’s very recent.  I’ve long thought that the Beatles / Beach Boys rivalry is the most compelling musical story of the 1960’s, because it’s responsible for so many wonderfully rich songs.

It should be noted that Paul got Brian’s birthday wrong:  it’s the 20th, not the 16th.  So Paul is actually the older “twin”.

 

[Jung Roe]

Hi David.  I think this is a new video that was posted very recently, and I am really glad someone compiled a video about this.  I don’t think enough people appreciate that rivalry that did exist, because in the early 60’s before the “British Invasion”, the Beach Boys were huge and cranking out the hits better than anyone else in North America, so when the Beatles arrived and began to eclipse the Beach Boys, there was that natural rivalry (this was before the Rolling Stones and the onslaught of other big British Bands that would follow shortly afterwards) between the Beatles and Beach Boys.  Brian Wilson took notice and admitted the Beach Boys were number 2 at that point after the Beatles.  That rivalry in the early and mid 60’s benefited music that would follow.  It paved the way for revolutionary studio music creation never seen before that other groups later would follow suit and benefit from.  I think album creativity and complexity in pop/rock music stepped up to newer heights after Rubber Soul, Pet Sounds, Revolver and Sargent Peppers, and the positive rivalry between Brian Wilson and Paul McCartney was a big factor.

When MLT talk about taking a hiatus from live performance and going into the studio to write and create new original songs and albums, Pet Sounds and Sargent Peppers come to mind.  After all, MLT are one of the few artists out there today carrying on that artistic song writing tradition from the 60’s that Brian Wilson and the Beatles started.

[Howard]

Hi Jung. Got to say I think this rivalry is a particularly American thing as in the sixties when I was in High School, the rivalry was between Beatles fans and Rolling Stones fans. The Beach Boys were rarely an issue for us. The rivalry was specifically between the fans as the members of the two groups were actually on friendly terms. It was the Stones manager, Andrew Loog Oldham, who fostered the rivalry as a way of maximising publicity for his major signing.

Oldham encouraged the Stones’ ‘bad boy’ image as he couldn’t see them competing with Beatlemania and the Beatles’ wholesome family image. For me, when I was a schoolboy, you were either a ‘middle-class’ Beatle or a ‘working-class’ Stone! You couldn’t be both, well not publically anyway. So for me and my brothers, it had to be the Rolling Stones, even though my best friend was a Beatles fan (and Simon and Garfunkle). As he was a well to do middle-class kid, I became dependant on purchasing half-price, second-hand records from him. It wasn’t until the early seventies that I was able to ‘come out’ as a Beatles fan (and John Lennon in particular after the release of “John Lennon/Plastic Ono Band” in 1970 and “Imagine”, released in 1971).

For me, there was no comparison between the quality of Beach Boys albums (heavily dependant on Brian Wilson’s input) with that of what I have always felt to be the superior Beatles and Rolling Stones albums during the sixties. In particular, from when they were writing most of their own material. I also believe that the Beatles and the Stones were far superior bands (to most bands) when it came to live playing.

I know this is my personal taste and not everyone will agree. I intend to post a “Sgt Peppers” vs “Pet Sounds” analogy (metaphorically) at a later date. Yes, there may have been some rivalry between Wilson and McCartney when it came to songwriting, but this was all over by 1967.

[Jung Roe]

Hi Howard.  I think the Beach Boys-Beatles Rivalry was definitely a North American thing.  While the Rolling Stones are considered one of the forefront bands of the British Invasion, they had some major international hits like Satisfaction (first international no 1 hit) and Paint It Black in 1965/66, but their huge popularity in North America to match the levels of the Beach Boys and Beatles came in the late 60’s (1966/67 – Rolling Stones Height of fame period), after Pet Sounds and Sargent Peppers, and the rivalry thing was pretty much over by 1967 as you said.  I think the Rolling Stones and all the great bands of the 60’s certainly benefited from the heights Pet Sounds and Sargent Peppers elevated rock/pop music to.

I look forward to your Sargent Peppers vs Pet Sounds analogy.

[Jung Roe]

With the Rolling Stones, while I like some of their classic upbeat songs like Satisfaction, Brown Sugar, Honky Tonk Woman, Under My Thumb etc…, it’s their ballads that really blew me away.  Angie, Wild Horses, As Tears Go By.  Despite their bad boy image, they have an incredible tender side to their art.  That is why they are so great.

I love this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUzBjabwwbY

 

[David Herrick]

Speaking of Rolling Stones ballads, I have a question about “Ruby Tuesday” for anyone who was around when it came out.  From the first time I heard it, it reminded me of an early Bee Gees song.  Does it pre-date the rise of the Bee Gees?

 

[Howard]

Hi David. ‘Ruby Tuesday’ was released on January 1967 and was a double ‘A’ side with ‘Let’s Spend The Night Together’ on the other side. Barry and twins Maurice and Robin had been around forever, as they started out playing together as The Bee Gees in 1958 when they were children. Their first major hit, ‘Spicks and Specks’ was released in 1966 and the Bee Gees left Australia for London on January 4, 1967.

“Spicks and Specks” was followed up in quick succession with “New York Mining Disaster 1941,” (April 1967), To Love Somebody,” (June 1967) and “Massachusetts”(September 1967). And the rest, as they say, is history.

As for “Ruby Tuesday”, I’d love The MLT to do a cover of this song. Please, please me, Mona and Lisa!

[David Herrick]

Thanks, Howard.  I knew you’d be the one to answer this.  Much appreciated.  So based on that timeline, the Stones clearly weren’t trying to emulate the Bee Gees, which is what I had always wondered about.

 

[John Behle]

I agree.  I just listened to Ruby Tuesday again and it would be a great song for Mona and Lisa to do.  Adding their skill, charm and harmonies to this classic would be wonderful.

[Jacki Hopper]

I, too, have thought of the gals tackling Ruby Tuesday… Seems like we’re all MLTBuzzing Groovy the same  in terms of cover song ideas…. Lol…. You never know, they might just go ahead and do do and surprise us all one day ….

[Roger]

Wish that I had that kind of knowledge base when it came to groups.  Many of you folks simply impress the heck out of me with the details you share in these many postings!  It all makes for great reads.  For me, I knew that I related to the music produced. by some groups, while others…not so much.  The Stones were one of those groups that just did not appeal to me…perhaps my brother’s constant playing of their Paint It Black LP got…”under my skin (Thumb)”!

Love the many insights you guys share.   Keep them coming!

Roger

[Jung Roe]

Thanks Roger. I really liked what Paul McCartney said when he was inducting Brian Wilson into the hall of fame. Something to the effect that it takes true genius to create music that can move you to tears. When I hear some music by the Beach Boys, Beatles, Rolling Stones… and so many of the great bands of the 60’s, even 6 decades later they still can move us so deeply to tears of joy. There was a lot of genius back then, and I love how that genius has transported to the future through the few musical talent that exist today, foremost MLT team ( Fab 4) . The recent videos “Once Upon a Time”, “Starman” are so fantastic unaffected by the barrage of canned music the industry is trying to push. I just saw another interview Paul McCartney gave last week where after writing over a 1000 songs since the 60’s he says “Writing music is still a thrill because out of nowhere you produce a rabbit.” Creativity is a wonderful thing, and the 60’s seemed to have been one of the most creative periods of modern times as pointed out by many sociologists. Beatles, Civil Rights movement, first man on the moon, etc… Seeing Mick Jagger still doing his moves on stage in 2019, Paul McCartney releasing a brand new album, John Sebastian touring, Beach Boys filling the concert halls etc…it is all indeed inspiring for the rest of us mere mortals to witness. I think that is their legacy and virtue to be able to move and make a difference in people’s lives for generations, to their last breath. Beethoven kept creating until his death bed.

[Roger]

Very well said…love reading your entries throughout these forum areas.   As folks say…”you the man!” and I love reading your insights and bits and pieces of period knowledge.  Roger

[Jung Roe]

Thanks Roger!  🙂  Very much enjoying your guitar photos and your passion you are sharing with us all.   It’s hard to contain the enthusiasm for Mona and Lisa isn’t it for all the joy they bring to their fans through their music and all they do.

[Howard]

For those of you interested in the Rolling Stones “Ruby Tuesday”, it is unusual for a number of reasons.

For a start, Mick Jagger wasn’t included in the writing of this song. It was written by Keith Richards who had just been dumped by his girlfriend, Linda Keith. Brian Jones helped with the music but the song was credited to Jagger/Richards kike all Stones songs were, much like all songs written by Lennon and/or McCartney were attributed to Lennon/McCartney. In a similar way, all MLT songs are credited to MLT, irrespective of who the main contributor is. Theirs is a truly collaborative effort.

An unusual aspect of the Stones. performance of “Ruby Tuesday” live on the Ed Sullivan show on January 15, 1967, is Bill Wyman swapping his electric bass for acoustic double bass, played with a bow, Keith Richards swapping his guitar for a piano and Brian Jones ditching his guitar for a recorder.

I can definitely see a cover of this with Mona dusting off her flute, or trying the recorder (I’m sure you could really get into your drumming here too Mona), Lisa on acoustic double bass with a bow (I know you could do it, Lisa), and the maestro himself, Mr. Wagner tinkling the ivories. Now, just how good would that be! Not sure who should handle the lead vocals, but I’m sure Mona and Lisa could work that out as usual. Any suggestions? I don’t expect them to attempt the Jagger dance moves! Do yourself a favour, check out this video.

https://youtu.be/5We4f9bTNvI

[Jung Roe]

I had a neighbor friend who is a huge Stones fan, and when he came across MLTs “The Last Time” and “Paint It Black” video on my Facebook posting, he was beside himself.  I think any Rolling Stones cover, especially a ballad, if MLT decide to cover would be just stellar.  Lisa and Mona’s vocal depth and versatility I think would adapt any Mick Jagger vocal character just fine.

 

[Jung Roe]

Watched the Ruby Tuesday video, and Mick Jagger in those days certainly had charisma on the stage the way he could dance and sing.  Whenever I see the Beach Boys, Beatles or Rolling Stones perform in one of those early 60’s shows like Ed Sullivan, I wonder how much of the live audience actually heard anything with all that screaming.  Couldn’t imagine sitting in front of a group of screaming girls at one of those shows.  Maybe end up suffering from hearing loss afterwards 🙂  I do remember being at an AC/DC concert in the 80’s in Toronto.  When they lowered that cannon for (For Those About to Rock We Salute You) and fired it, I think my ears rang for a few hours after the show.

[Jung Roe]

In the video, a young Paul McCartney says about their musical background “..we knew E, and we knew A, but we didn’t know B7…”. What humble beginnings, from the band that would transform music forever.   🙂

[Howard]

“Couldn’t imagine sitting in front of a group of screaming girls at one of those shows”. I understand Jung. It would have been worse at one of those early Beatles’ performances.