Guest Howard
GuestForum Replies Created
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Hi David. This subject has been addressed in the Forum previously. You can’t claim ownership of song titles. I will post more later. I’m about to commence a long bicycle ride!
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Once again an excellent video Jung. We had three Beatles raised in council homes and only Lennon in a private home, in contrast to the mainly middle-class life of The Stones.
I know the Beatles and anti-Beatles story well, as being a young teenager at the time I lived the hype. I was a working-class kid who was a rebel Stones fan while my best friend at school was a middle-class kid who was a passionate Beatles and Simon and Garfunkel fan and not only had all their records but could also sing and play the guitar. Life just doesn’t seem fair sometimes!
It wasn’t until around 1970 and the end of the hysteria and hype, that I was able to start appreciating the Beatles more.
Yes, Tariq Ali marched in the anti-war demonstrations in 1968, along with Mick Jagger. “Street Fighting Man” (from Beggars Banquet), is a product of those times. I am a fan of Tariq’s writing, both fiction and non-fiction. For anyone who hasn’t read him, I can highly recommend his fiction novels (stories woven through history), especially for Anglo Saxons (like me) for a non-western perspective on European history and culture.
The video portrays the very sad story of Brian Epstein’s life and to an extent that of the Beatles and the Rolling Stones through self-serving promoters, managers and record companies.
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If you’re a fan of rock ‘n’ roll, you hear familiar riffs all the time. “Last Night” by The Strokes sounds a ton like Tom Petty’s “American Girl.” You’ll also catch Buddy Holly riffs in work by David Bowie and notice entire chunks of blues songs lifted (and supercharged) by Led Zeppelin.
You can expect that from music. The Beatles never tried to hide their influences, but they did understand coming too close could get them in legal trouble. McCartney has spoken about changing parts of songs to obscure moments that were too close for comfort.
The Fab Four loved playing Berry’s music from the start, and early in their career, they began lifting parts of the rock pioneer’s tunes. As Rolling Stone has pointed out, Paul McCartney freely admitted to stealing the bass line of Berry’s “I’m Talking About You” for “I Saw Her Standing There.”
While that never prompted any legal action, the band (and Lennon in particular) got caught with its hand in the cookie jar again in 1969. On “Come Together,” Lennon’s tune not only sounded plenty like Berry’s “You Can’t Catch Me”; he actually quoted Berry with the “Here come old flat-top” bit. That gave Berry’s music publisher an opening to sue, and Lennon’s attorneys agreed to settle after John admitted to Berry’s heavy influence.
In one of his final interviews, Lennon said Harrison “walked right into it” with the copyright infringement on “My Sweet Lord.” (The song “He’s So Fine” was the clear antecedent.)
“George could have changed a few bars in that song and nobody could have ever touched him,” Lennon told Playboy. “But he just let it go and paid the price.” The bill, adjusted for inflation, came to about $2.5 million.John Lennon once said you could replace the name rock ‘n’ roll with Chuck Berry and call it a day. The respect was mutual. Berry, who was one of rock’s greatest songwriters, loved The Beatles and said “Yesterday” was the one song he wished he’d written.
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As for the ‘Taurus’ vs ‘Stairway’ dispute, on the band’s self-titled debut, a song called “Taurus” (by Spirit founder Randy Wolfe) delivers a very “Stairway” feel for 2 minutes and 40 seconds.
“The similarity didn’t go unnoticed by Wolfe (whose rock name was Randy California). Before he died in 1997, Wolfe told a magazine he remained ‘sore’ Page and Plant never offered him credit for the song while he was alive. There are certainly similarities.
Similarities aside, you’d have to get into copyright law to determine whether that inspiration counts as infringement. That’s exactly what the next trial in the lawsuit will determine. The terms of the trial will be different, though. While musicians only played sheet music of the song in court during the first trial, jurors will have access to the Spirit recording the second time around.
Meanwhile, they’ll hear the details about when and where Led Zeppelin’s members might have heard it.
Why did it take over 50 years for the lawsuit to materialize? Wolfe may have been sore, but not sore enough to sue. He even once said that if Page and Plant wanted to use that riff, he’d let them have it “without a lawsuit.” Decades after his death, Wolfe’s estate disagreed. As of 2019, the issue remains unsettled, with another trial looming.
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This is the performer and the song I was referring to in my previous post.
“‘All by Myself'” is a song by American artist Eric Carmen released in 1975. The verse is based on the second movement (Adagio sostenuto) of Sergei Rachmaninoff’s Piano Concerto No. 2 in C minor, Opus 18.
Rachmaninoff’s music was in the public domain in the United States and Carmen thought no copyright existed on it, but it was still protected outside the U.S. Subsequent to the release of the album, he was contacted by the Rachmaninoff estate and informed otherwise. An agreement was reached in which the estate would receive 12 percent of the royalties from “All by Myself” as well as from his “Never Gonna Fall in Love Again”, which was based on the third movement from Rachmaninoff’s Symphony No. 2″
One of the most notable cover versions of “All by Myself” was recorded by Celine Dion in 1996.
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Thanks for the video access Jung. I don’t know if it’s one I’ve seen but I’ll have a look when I get the time. Yes, record labels and promoters really ripped off both bands in the end, but unfortunately, this has been par for the course for most bands over the years. There is a fair amount of discussion around this in a very early MLT Club post, particularly in regard to Badfinger and the tragedy that was their experience with management. I have also just replied to David Herrick’s Topic ’60’s Sound-Alike Songs’ on this issue and in particular, regarding former Rolling Stones manager Allen Klein, (who owns the copyrights to the band’s pre-1970 songs because of aggressive business practices).
We are fortunate that Mona and Lisa are independent and have the experience of Rudolf and Michaela behind them.
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Hi Jung. Apparently, this isn’t over. According to the appeals court decision, the 2016 trial judge erred in failing to instruct jurors that the trustee could prevail if Wolfe had created a “sufficiently original combination” of “otherwise unprotectable music elements,” and also in instructing jurors about the copyrighting of music elements in the public domain; the case is set to return to the District Court.
Another decision against Page could have a lot of composers worried.
For mine, one of the biggest copyright infringement injustices of recent years was against Richard Ashcroft. Ashcroft’s song famously sampled an orchestral cover of the Rolling Stones’ ‘The Last Time,’ and a lawsuit from former Stones manager Allen Klein shortly after its release forced him to hand over 100 percent of the royalties from ‘Bitter Sweet Symphony’ to Mick Jagger and Keith Richards. Ashcroft quipped at the time that it was “the best song Jagger and Richards have written in twenty years.” He then suffered from a nervous breakdown and the group eventually broke up.
To me the handling of this by record company executives and band management is appalling. It must be remembered that Jagger/Richards had nothing to do with the shenanigans that were going on here.
The following is from The Guardian (Australian edition):
“Mick Jagger and Keith Richards of the Rolling Stones have ended one of the most acrimonious copyright disputes in British pop history, by granting Richard Ashcroft all future royalties from his 1997 song ‘Bitter Sweet Symphony’, performed by the Verve.
In a statement Richard Ashcroft said:
‘This remarkable and life-affirming turn of events was made possible by a kind and magnanimous gesture from Mick and Keith, who have also agreed that they are happy for the writing credit to exclude their names and all their royalties derived from the song they will now pass to me.’
Bitter Sweet Symphony is one of the definitive British singles of the 1990s: a moody, existential anthem driven forward by a distinctive string motif. Those four seconds of strings were sampled from an orchestral recording of the Rolling Stones song ‘The Last Time’, but the rights were not fully cleared before the song was released.
Bitter Sweet Symphony reached No 2 in the UK and No 12 in the US, where it was also nominated for a Grammy for best rock song. It was the lead track from the album Urban Hymns, which reached No 1 in the UK and went 10-times platinum, eventually selling more than 10m copies worldwide. It remains the 19th highest-selling album of all time in the UK, ahead of the likes of Simon and Garfunkel’s Bridge Over Troubled Water, Meat Loaf’s Bat Out of Hell, and Ed Sheeran’s x.”
Last year, Rolling Stone’s Rob Sheffield named ‘Bitter Sweet Symphony’ the 40th best song of 1998, the year in which it crossed the Atlantic to become a major hit in the U.S.
Personally, I am really glad that Richard Ashcroft has finally received justice and recognition for his art. In an interview with the BBC, he added, “I never had a personal beef with the Stones. They’ve always been the greatest rock & roll band in the world.”
If you are interested in the full detail of this controversy, I have included the following from the web:
“The Verve vs. The Rolling Stones (1997)
“Bitter Sweet Symphony,” by the Verve (1997) vs. “The Last Time,” by the Rolling Stones (written by Mick Jagger, Keith Richards) (1965)
The Case: The Verve had a major smash with their dreamy “Bittersweet Symphony.” Vocalist Richard Ashcroft penned the song’s lyrics, but the instrumental backing was partially sampled from a symphonic version of the Rolling Stones’ song “The Last Time,” recorded in 1965 by the Andrew Oldham Orchestra. The band had originally agreed to license a five-note segment of the recording in exchange for 50 percent of the royalties, but former Rolling Stones’ manager Allen Klein claimed the Verve voided the agreement by using a larger section than they agreed to use. ABKCO Records, Klein’s holding company, filed a plagiarism suit on behalf of himself and “The Last Time” songwriters Mick Jagger and Keith Richards.
The Verdict: The Verve forfeited all of the songwriting royalties and publishing rights to ABKCO, and the song credit reverted to Jagger and Richards. “We were told it was going to be a 50/50 split,” recalled Verve bassist Simon Jones. “Then they saw how well the record was doing. They rung up and said we want 100 percent or take it out of the shops, you don’t have much choice.”
Andrew Loog Oldham, another former Stones manager who owned the actual recording that was sampled, sued the band in 1999 for $1.7 million in mechanical royalties. In the end, the Verve lost all control of their biggest hit. It was used in a Nike commercial against their wishes, earning them no money and crushing their sense of artistic integrity. “I’m still sick about it,” Ashcroft said in later years. The final insult came when “Bittersweet Symphony” was nominated for a “Best Song” Grammy – with Mick Jagger and Keith Richards named on the ballot.
Why It Matters: The saga of “Bittersweet Symphony” can either be viewed as a cautionary tale or one of the most unjust chapters in musical copyright history. Though the Verve sampled a cover of a Rolling Stones’ song, it was a portion written by orchestra arranger David Whitaker – who was not credited on any of the recordings.”
And of course, I would love to see an MLT cover of ‘Bittersweet Symphony’. After all, they have already recorded a great live cover of ‘The Last Time’. It may not be from the sixties or even the seventies, but what the heck, it’s a great song!
There is one other major copyright issue I believe is worthy of discussing. However, you’ve probably had more than enough from me for now, so I’ll leave it for another post. It is a song that was a huge hit for a soloist back in the mid seventies.
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Another beauty Jacki. What do you think their next Bowie inspiration might be?
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The Kinks were banned from playing in the USA from 1965 to 1969. However, they are not the only band to have been banned from various countries. They were denied visas after a conflict with the ‘American Federation of Musicians’.
A committee ruled that The Beatles had no artistic merit and would cause mass hysteria among youths and were banned from Israel in 1964.
The Rolling Stones were banned from Japan in 1973. Mick Jagger’s 1967 and 1970 drug convictions put the Rolling Stones on Japan’s blacklist.
Led Zeppelin was banned from Singapore in 1972 after Singapore had banned long hair on men and refused entry to Led Zeppelin.
The Clash was banned from East Germany as their music was thought to be too politically charged.
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Yes, I know it well. I have all their best songs and more! Ray Davies was a great songwriter. A pity his younger brother was so difficult to get along with as he was mainly responsible for them being banned from touring America for about four years in their prime.
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Yes Jung, I did mention the ‘No Reply’ video a couple of months ago, as I acknowledged above. I previously referred to it under the topic, “If I Needed Someone”.
Of course that other Twin with similar rock cred could only be Mona!
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Now as for that other person I believe has the Rock cred to rival John Lennon, apart from younger sibling Mona, of course, is our very own Lisa. I’m sure they don’t mind us claiming ownership in this fan club, it’s in a very protective way! For those of you who haven’t listened to their very first live concert, you are truly missing something very special.
At just 13, Lisa is showing just the sort of passion I believe she could now deliver with a cover of ‘No Reply’. Standing tall, strong and confident, she is a powerhouse delivering the Sandi Thom cover, ‘I Wish I Was A Punkrocker’:
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Thanks for that David. I think it is the MonaLisa Twins’ wonderful, positive vision that inspires us all with their sheer joy of, and passion for music (and the Beatles in particular), plus their own unique creations, art, and videos. They have managed to bring us all together here in this best of all clubs to share our own experiences and offer our own unique contributions.
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Yes, awesome Jacki. Don’t know where these come from. Your head must be full of wonderful thoughts and poetry. Very inspiring.
And David, very funny. As I read your ‘alternate’ lyrics I can’t help thinking, now why didn’t I think of that. My mind must be quite dull and needs the awakening it gets in this club!
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Well Tomas, not being a musician I can only envy the opportunities your talent gives you. However, I would forgo the opportunity to see any of my rock favourites of the past just for one close encounter with the MonaLisa Twins!
